Interbrand’s Christopher Nurko on Purpose-Led Innovation

Christopher Nurko:

The more diverse and engaged and inclusive you are with customers or employees, the closer you are to them. And that means you can innovate more efficiently, more effectively, you have better ideas, and you also understand what's relevant and meaningful to your customers.

Rob Goodman:

Hi everyone, and welcome to Now What?, the podcast from Wix about how technology is changing…everything. I'm your host, Rob Goodman, and in this series, we're talking all about evolution in business, design, development and beyond. In this new season of the show, we're diving into customer experience.

Rob Goodman:

As the world has rapidly transformed, customers’ expectations, behavior and needs have adapted with it. Paired with the emergence of new forms of social media, digital currency, the metaverse and so much more, navigating what this means for you and your organization can be a lot. We're bringing you fresh interviews and new insights from leaders that are reshaping business today to better prepare you for what's ahead.

Rob Goodman:

In this last interview of season two, we're joined by Christopher Nurko, Chief Innovation and Growth Officer at Interbrand Group, the world's leading brand consultancy. Chris has over 30 years of experience in branding and innovation.

Rob Goodman:

He's worked with countless iconic brands and Fortune 500 companies like Microsoft, Samsung, Nissan and Verizon just to name a few. He's done pro bono advisory work for the World Health Organization, Malaria No More, Safe Kids International, Human Rights Campaign.

Rob Goodman:

He led the branding on New York City Pride and the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall riots, which we'll discuss in this episode. And he works with various animal rights and adoption agencies.

Rob Goodman:

Chris joins the show to discuss the power of purpose-driven innovation, why doing good is truly good for business, the reasons to rethink customers as citizens and why being radically inclusive is the path for brands that want to thrive in the years to come.

Rob Goodman:

This is the essential listen for all business leaders who have woken up to the realization that this new world calls for new ways of thinking and doing good as a global brand. I can't wait for you to hear this episode with Chris Nurko. So let's get started. Chris, welcome to the Now What? podcast. So great to have you here.

Christopher Nurko:

Thanks, Rob.

Rob Goodman:

So let's start off and tell listeners a little bit about your role at Interbrand. And I also want to hear about your teaching work as well.

Christopher Nurko:

Sure. Well, my job title is I'm Chief Innovation and Growth Officer for Interbrand Group, which is the combination of Interbrand Brand Consultancy and C Space Consumer Insight Agency. And as part of that work, I also am sort of the Chief Ethics and Integrity Officer.

Christopher Nurko:

And it kind of combines those skills of really understanding brands, brand experience, consumers, and most importantly, their role, like in society, through their product, services and experiences they create. So that's my job title based as much as it can be at home in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, and Jupiter, Florida during the seasons. But I have a global role.

Rob Goodman:

And how about your teaching work?

Christopher Nurko:

Yeah. My teaching, well, I'm a kind of practitioner teacher, so I'm not a full-time faculty. But what I do is I'm an adjunct professor. I teach at SCAD, the Savannah College of Art and Design, Rutgers University, Bournemouth University in the U.K. and also a sometimes lecturer at Georgetown.

Rob Goodman:

Let's talk about innovation. I know this is the focus of your work, the focus of your career, your teaching. Talk to me about how innovation and brand success are tied together and how you kind of define and conceptualize the idea of innovation.

Christopher Nurko:

Sure. Innovation also suffers from the same thing that branding does. Brand is such a big broad shouldered term and innovation is as well. But I always start with: innovation is not just the new, innovation is also the better.

Christopher Nurko:

And when you combine new and better, that's really what brands have to put at the very heart of their relevance and their meaning to consumers and also through organizations to employees and shareholders.

Christopher Nurko:

And I suppose, today, we're living at a time where innovation for branding is really related to customer experience, to products and services, to user experience. And the idea that in order to stay, not only ahead of the competitors, but even ahead of consumer expectations, leveraging technology to deliver what consumers never expected or even imagined what they could use or need.

Rob Goodman:

And I'm curious about specific examples that you've seen over the past six months, year, two years. I mean, this is such an unprecedented time in human history and businesses are changing, culture is changing, the way customers behave and their expectations are changing so much. Talk to me about some examples you've seen, maybe both in that improvement side and then also in the new.

Christopher Nurko:

I think that some fundamentals have not changed despite the circumstances. So all brands and businesses and organizations are really kind of looking for creating through branding, trust, love, and advocacy, right? That's kind of the cornerstone of good marketing and really good business.

Christopher Nurko:

And I think what we've seen is particularly during the challenges of COVID and even kind of all the implications of that from supply chain delivery to the rise of the fact that we were stuck at home, really not experiencing the world the way we normally had, brands had to pivot.

Christopher Nurko:

And they really had to pivot around the idea that contact was now going to be virtual. It was going to be digitally enabled. So it accelerated a lot of the technologies that we're using now in a way that we never expected, from shopping to information to kind of interaction — like being able to do a podcast like this remotely, or even Zoom calling, who does analog phone calls anymore?

Christopher Nurko:

So all of a sudden all of the channels and media change, that was the first thing. And the second thing that changed with that is, and it's not in the United States, not just the pandemic, but a lot of the social issues that came out of, for example, George Floyd's murder, and a lot of the racial tensions and inequality tensions across the board.

Christopher Nurko:

That all of a sudden brands had to lean into issues that were no longer just around business. So you combine those two things and what you see is an innovation that was happening that wasn't just about the technology and the experience, but it's about what brands and organizations stood for and how they became more inclusive and how they used technology and digital tools to overcome some of the divide of either inequity and access or even quite blatantly bias.

Christopher Nurko:

So all of a sudden you see that there's this shift that's occurred. And the leaders are the ones that baked that into their business strategy, and they began to innovate on being not only meaningful and relevant, but purposeful. And I think that's kind of where innovation comes in.

Christopher Nurko:

Because innovation is reframing the context of your competition, reframing the context of the products, services and experiences you offer and enabling your customers to experience literally better service, better understanding, more personal, more relevant and shifting the dynamic.

Christopher Nurko:

So a couple examples that kind of bring this to light I think. First of all, just think about how all of a sudden grocery stores had to pivot. And you think about Instacart. And just all of a sudden, just the basic elements of buying food shifted completely.

Christopher Nurko:

The other thing related to that was the way we began using social media to create conversational commerce. We began, whether it's scrolling through YouTube or Instagram and finding new companies, brands that through AI were serving us up content and potential offers from companies that weren't the traditional suspects, right?

Christopher Nurko:

Big organizations. It actually put us in touch in some cases with more local businesses, perhaps more niche businesses. And again, this is the dynamic of using social media and AI to serve up programmatic, not only advertising, but also offers, often very much tailored to whatever the search or whatever your needs were.

Christopher Nurko:

This became very commonplace, particularly with the digital native generation. You can think about all those companies that you perhaps purchased while you were sitting on your sofa, it became completely different. The other aspect, which is Netflix changed the game of subscription and content and entertainment.

Christopher Nurko:

And that really plays back to thinking now about brands become almost subscribed default through our devices. And that's a really important shift, which is that now, if you think about it, we have multiple devices. Through the pandemic, we're now experiencing a hybrid of virtual and real interaction that we're now accustomed to our data being — with permission, and that's important — innovation is about giving you more options, transparency and accountability. And those brands that leaned into that storing your data in the cloud, made it much easier for you to have a seamless experience. Think about all those times previously reentering passwords, saving data, even payment systems.

Christopher Nurko:

So all of a sudden the digital tools allowed us to kind of go to default brands in our ecosystem of our devices. And through interaction, those brands learned more about us and were able to serve up new content. And so what that means is Starbucks, for example, now highly personal, recognizing what I'm ordering, serving up localized information.

Christopher Nurko:

The ability to now track where my package, whether it's for Instacart or FedEx, I know, oh, it's going to be delivered in 15 minutes. Oh, you know what? I need to reroute it. Can I have it delivered tomorrow? Much more control, many more options, real time tracking. These are all kinds of things that also tied into our, what I would call our personalization and our reward mechanisms.

Christopher Nurko:

So all of a sudden our trust translated into preference, commercial transactions, incentive rewards. And think about the Starbucks reward system, right? And if we weren't going to the office as much anymore, but we were at home, we kind of shifted our consumer spend.

Christopher Nurko:

We also then, and I think this is another kind of interesting thing, we started thinking about what are the brands that are going to help us live our best lives. This was a huge thing for Netflix, as I said, but organizations like Casper, who had been pretty much based on mattresses now, you don't have to go to a store and try it.

Christopher Nurko:

They accelerated their personalization, particularly people spending time at home. They really leaned into that. And even transactions now through the likes of Venmo and Zelle. All of a sudden new payment transactions, you don't need to go to the bank anymore. New financial services, new insurance services began emerging.

Christopher Nurko:

We rethought Uber. Uber Eats took off. So if you think about all those things and then add to that, the whole idea of health and wellness and contactless, and what are you doing to say that you're helping the frontline workers, the accountability for that, these are all examples of how innovation and context shifted our behaviors and therefore the role that brands play.

Rob Goodman:

When it comes to ethics and branding, what is the role and how does that kind of go from potentially a company's ethos, like organizationally, how they treat their employees and their brand values and things like that into external ethics?

Rob Goodman:

And I also want to ask you about the power of DEI and inclusive design, especially in building customer trust and loyalty. Talk to me about those things, because I know this is a big focus area for you.

Christopher Nurko:

Yeah. I think it's going to become even more important in the future. And you heard it here first with you, ethics and integrity are really going to be at the cornerstone of all organizations and brands.

Christopher Nurko:

And consumers are really going to be leaning into this, not least of which, because we have all these topics and things going on around us that are really calling into question a lot of those assumptions and values that really transcend partisan politics.

Christopher Nurko:

They really talk about who are we in humanity and as people. And brands never before have had to kind of lean in and have a point of view. And those that did, which really came from the more ethical philanthropic side, they emerged from the edges to now being the mainstream, let's call them the poster children for better, Ben & Jerry's, Patagonia, Toms.

Christopher Nurko:

All of these organizations that had ethics at the very core of their founding have really over time influenced now this idea that giving back, recognizing that business and brand's role is part of society much more than just making profits, but serving consumers and communities.

Christopher Nurko:

And that's where your question on DEI is. As I said, with all the challenges of social justice and racial inequality, for example, in the U.S., but it's also around the world. All of a sudden business has the capabilities and competency to address that, whether it's through their employees or through the products that they serve up.

Christopher Nurko:

And every business provides a consumer or a customer with the chance to exercise choice. So I like to think of businesses now as enabling good citizenship by attaching values and points of view to shifting the world from where it is today to what we want to see in the world.

Christopher Nurko:

And that's where being more inclusive, eliminating bias, addressing inequities, inequality, either in access, affordability, or even giving back to communities becomes really important. And digital tools enable us to do that, enable us to fundraise, if you think about that. To offset.

Christopher Nurko:

Brands are building into their business model, buy one, give something. And people choose brands now that feel like they're giving back and are more inclusive. So I think that's really important to recognize that the digital-first native generation has purpose right at their heart, which is why I spend a lot of time talking to business leaders, small, medium and large, about how they put purpose to work in their organization for employees, shareholders and customers.

Christopher Nurko:

And the more diverse and engaged and inclusive you are with customers or employees, the closer you are to them. And that means you can innovate more efficiently, more effectively, you have better ideas and you also understand what's relevant and meaningful to your customers. So these are all critical.

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Rob Goodman:

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Rob Goodman:

I do want to talk to you about this sense of purpose. I can tell in your career, in your advocacy work, you bring a sense of purpose to the world and to your work with brands and to with students. And I would love to hear about this recent appointment as a global LGBTQ+ Role Model for INvolve. What is the INvolve organization and what does this Role Model position involve?

Christopher Nurko:

First of all, I was super honored to be nominated and selected, which I didn't know. And it really comes from this idea that role models in the sense of people that you can see represented in the world, in careers, in academia, in positions of authority and influence actually have an impact.

Christopher Nurko:

And they have an impact not just as representation of their identity, but in the advocacy and the work and the impact they have in through their business. And as I said, brands influence people. And so I have the power. My superpower is that through the work I do, I can impact organizations and indirectly their customers.

Christopher Nurko:

So living with purpose is what happens when you understand who you are and your core values. That understands and helps you shape your priorities and how you make decisions and kind of who you choose to serve. And I think I've always felt that I know my identity, I know who I am. And I like to lift others up, whether that's through teaching or through the work that I do.

Christopher Nurko:

So as I said, when Involve, they had seen the work I had led on the Stonewall 50th Anniversary work, which was a few years ago now, but it was the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall riots. I led all the branding work for that for New York City Pride and World Pride. I've continually fought for HRC and equality rights and will continue to do so as well as in the U.K. and in Europe.

Christopher Nurko:

And particularly for countries where LGBTQI+ rights are, let's just say not even recognized, let alone advocated. So to tie this back is that being purposeful is knowing, as I said, who you are, knowing whether that's for an individual or for a community or for an organization, and understanding that integrity is about when your actions live up to your words and that you do that for your principles, not because of some other incentive or self-reflective benefit.

Christopher Nurko:

Today in this world, given everything that's happening, we really need to think about the world that we want to live in, how we want to treat others. We have a limited planet and resources. And if you're familiar with the whole concept of the “Doughnut Economy” is that limited environment that we have in resources is also countered with, at the very center, the idea of those in the world who need to be included and who are often marginalized, vulnerable, or excluded, and that we can only grow or at least thrive by bringing those two things together.

Christopher Nurko:

So a lot of the purpose work I do is with organizations to help them realize the untapped potential of the underserved. And by looking at those who are not included or are underserved or vulnerable, you actually can design a better world for everyone.

Christopher Nurko:

And I think that's the whole point of inclusive design, inclusive thinking, inclusive strategy doesn't only serve those who are the most able, who are the most powerful or economically advantaged or indeed technologically advantaged.

Christopher Nurko:

Technological access and literacy is going to be the fundamental key that lifts everyone up, educates everyone and addresses all of these inequalities. So I kind of have committed that through my work, which started out working for businesses, I guess, in the pure profit, creating great campaigns and products. That was really exciting.

Christopher Nurko:

But now we just have so much more awareness of the impact of that and mass consumption that I kind of feel I'm balancing out the early part of my career with now bringing perhaps a lot more wisdom and guidance. And being recognized for being a role model, well, that's kind of great too. So, and I'm very appreciative of that. But there are others who do far more and sacrifice way more than I have, but at least I'm doing my small part.

Rob Goodman:

That's amazing, Chris. Thank you so much for all the work that you do. And I've been following your activities on LinkedIn and just the way that you advocate, you share knowledge, you invite people into the conversation. I think it's wonderful, wonderful work. So thank you so much for what you're doing.

Christopher Nurko:

Oh, thank you. And it kind of ties with something that my companies have identified, which is the world needs a sense of positive human energy now. And we talk about this a lot, which is positive being understanding the world can be better, going back to innovation, and that more is not necessarily more.

Christopher Nurko:

It's about better circular economy, sustainable economy, sustainable social justice, rights and inclusivity, and that you bring the human aspect. And we didn't talk about this, but technology can only do so much for us. We really have to focus on the human equation. And that human equation starts with understanding ethics, values, principles and purpose, and bringing back empathy and kindness, recognizing we do live in a multicultural world.

Christopher Nurko:

I'm just constantly struck by that as I travel around, not just the United States, but around the world. Sometimes we forget that. And COVID kind of taught us and there are communities in the world that recognize that through that we get our strength.

Christopher Nurko:

And by the way, I think that I'm very optimistic. Vala Afshar, who I love. I follow him on Twitter. And he said once, "The future belongs to the optimists." And I, 1000% agree with that. So even in the darkest days, look for the good in people and look for the opportunity and you shall thrive.

Rob Goodman:

I love hearing that. And one of the things that you and I have talked about is this idea that you kind of have a little bit of a twist on calling users, customers, or consumers, and you've described them potentially as citizens. Talk to me about that pivot in language and what that means.

Christopher Nurko:

Yeah. And I don't mean citizen in the sense of being tied to a nationality. That's important. If you think about what a citizen of any city, country, region or this planet, a planetary citizen means there's a value exchange that comes from who you are and what role and what you can give and what you want to create individually and collectively.

Christopher Nurko:

And that means there's a combination of both obligations, the obligatory of what we have to do. And a lot of our laws and rules are about that. They help govern us and create structure and security and consistency. But then there's a lot of discretionary actions. And discretionary citizenship is about choosing to do the right thing when no one's watching.

Christopher Nurko:

It's about understanding the principles that others can come before you, and sometimes that we are better served by thinking about all of us, or, indeed, as I just said, the most vulnerable and the most underserved. And I think that citizenship comes with this responsibility that's both obligatory and discretionary.

Christopher Nurko:

And we think about this in terms of the planet and human rights. And I don't even want to go into the political and the partisan because that's different by every country. But if you just go back to the human side of this, we have some human truths. And my company and I spend a lot of time thinking about and understanding those human truths, that which unites us is greater than that which divides us.

Christopher Nurko:

And that's again, bridging the digital divide, the inequity divide, innovating for that. And being a good citizen ties all of that together, whether it's recycling, choosing the right products and services and companies to support who have a purpose and who are creating impact, deciding how we are going to not use the other as the excuse, reaching out and leaning into understanding the other and finding the commonality and not pandering to those who would seek to divide and to simplify our complex world.

Christopher Nurko:

And I think that's one of the dangers that technology has also done, as you know, living in Silicon Valley and in the West Coast where with great power comes great responsibility. And one of the things I think that comes with that is that we're now realizing that technology and social media and all of this access of distributed data and knowledge also comes with a responsibility for being honest and accurate and truthful and respectful.

Christopher Nurko:

These are all values that are easily overlooked, but that erodes trust and integrity. And that's exactly what I'm striving for. And I think most people who are true professionals and have a code of conduct and ethics that they believe in and who are in some cases, optimists, that's what we lean into.

Christopher Nurko:

And sharing information, bringing me, for example, onto your podcast today to talk about this, which doesn't seem like it's directly related to business, right? Or technology or customer experience. But guess what? It's related to everything with that. I think this is going to be the time that this next generation, I have a lot of hope for this, that Generation Z, Gen Next will really embrace and enshrine this and embrace radical inclusivity.

Rob Goodman:

So Chris, every day you're talking to brands, you're giving them advice, you're guiding them on strategy. For listeners out there who are leading teams and organizations, how might they start to internalize these discussions, the vision of where things are going and how things are changing now into their work, their daily habits, their practices with their teams and ultimately to improve the experiences for their customers, their citizens that are using their products and services? What are some practical steps listeners can take?

Christopher Nurko:

The first thing that I think I advise with any leaders, whether that's a CEO or a team leader, is to understand the difference between a leader and a manager. And a leader kind of lives in the future a little bit, but lives in leadership roles that support those they lead. They're in service to that.

Christopher Nurko:

So that requires a degree of confidence and humility to listen. That's the first thing. And that's listening to your employees, listening to your customers, listening to those who are dissatisfied as much as those who are satisfied, you know? And I think also considering the world context, we don't live isolated in a bubble.

Christopher Nurko:

So having conversations, making space for conversations, deliberately leaning in on difficult topics without judgment and in an inclusive manner, bringing people into the conversation, looking at their teams and saying, "Do we suffer from groupthink? Have we had enough input from those who perhaps are unrepresented or not represented or invisible to us?”

Christopher Nurko:

“Have we really addressed that? Have we looked at growth as being more and more, more, or is it better? Are there ways that we can not have such a negative impact on the world and ask for ideas?" Innovation is also asking for people to help you to solve problems, to create new things, to work with prototypes.

Christopher Nurko:

Fail fast, everyone knows that, but you have to try fast too. And I think this is one of the challenges that every business has the chance to innovate, because you have experience, user experience, you have customer experience, you have technology. And technology can only do so much. So I always encourage teams to, first of all, understand what leadership really is about.

Christopher Nurko:

The second thing is empowering others and enabling them and listening. Then using tools to help involve people, engage with them, get feedback. And then the next thing is a degree of bravery, is kind of stand out and stand up for things and try things. And don't be afraid of failing because actually, the greatest risk to innovation is not taking any risks.

Christopher Nurko:

So you kind of have to put yourself out there. And stop looking over your shoulder at all the competitors, because if you look within to who you are, what your team is, what your company or an organization is, you can find all you need to succeed there. Of course, it's always good to benchmark and I encourage everyone to benchmark, right?

Christopher Nurko:

But it doesn't have to be a direct competitor. It can be from the very best. Everyone can learn from the very best and put that into practice and measure it and make sure that you're tracking. And I think if you do that, you'll have much more, I would say happy, motivated and effective employees.

Christopher Nurko:

Customers will feel not that they're a number and a transaction, but maybe there's a relationship there and they're engaged and listened to. Trust, loyalty and advocacy and love really come from that idea of a commercial conversation with trust at its very heart and the pure definition of if you look after me, I'll be loyal to you.

Christopher Nurko:

And if you're meeting my needs, both functionally and in terms of utility, leaders have to recognize how you go beyond, how you delight, how you surprise, how you go a step further. And that's what the very best brands do.

Rob Goodman:

Amazing. Chris, thank you so much for joining the show. It was such a joy to speak with you and meet you. And thanks for sharing all of this with me and our listeners.

Christopher Nurko:

Pleasure to share with you, Rob, anytime.

Rob Goodman:

What a wonderful interview with Chris Nurko, Chief Innovation Officer at Interbrand. There's no way I could summarize all of Chris's fantastic insights on innovation throughout this episode, but here's just a few that stuck with me. First, this idea that ethics and integrity are going to become the cornerstone of all organizations and that customers are really going to lean into this.

Rob Goodman:

This isn't just for internal corporate value exercises, it's about action. We're seeing it more and more with brands that are speaking out on social issues and putting their money where their social square is and actually making a positive change in the world. Chris talked about how more of that is coming and will be foundational to brand success.

Rob Goodman:

Next is that by being radically inclusive, as Chris put it, companies will have the ability to get closer to their customers and build experiences and connections with them that drive, yes, profitability, but more that this inclusive behavior will become a main driver for innovation for years to come.

Rob Goodman:

Because it's really important to invite more people, employees, customers to the table, ask for suggestions, be open-minded and not to let fear of failure lead you astray. As Chris puts it, "The greatest risk to innovation is not taking any risks." You've got to try first in order to fail fast, learn, iterate and do better. And lastly, tying it all together is this notion of seeing customers as citizens.

Rob Goodman:

This idea leans into finding the good, staying optimistic, being inclusive and doing the right thing as a business and for your customers. This optimism isn't head in the clouds daydreaming, it's essential to corporate values that will build trust, integrity and loyalty for brands and their citizens in this next generation of technology, business and customer experience.

Rob Goodman:

This is what the next generation is expecting from businesses. Now is the time to start delivering for them. To learn more about Chris, you can find him on LinkedIn, Twitter. Check out Interbrand at interbrandbrand.com and discover more from this episode in our show notes at wix.com/nowwhat. I hope you enjoyed this episode and this entire season of Now What? podcast. Thank you so much for listening.

Rob Goodman:

And not to worry, we've got bonus episodes coming your way and are already hard at work on a new season of the show that will be coming to you early next year. This is Now What? by Wix, the podcast about how technology is changing…everything. Be sure to subscribe and follow the show wherever you're listening to get new episodes first, and please rate, review and share this show with your friends and colleagues too.

Rob Goodman:

Now What? podcast is produced and hosted by me, Rob Goodman, Executive Producer for Content at Wix. Audio engineering and editing is by Brian Pake at Pacific Audio. Music is composed and performed by Kimo Muraki. Executive Producers from Wix are Susan Kaplow and me, Rob Goodman. You can learn more at wix.com/nowwhat. We'll see you soon.